S. Irudaya Rajan, Retired Professor at the Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, is the Founder Chair of IIMAD – The International Institute of Migration and Development. He has three decades of research experience and has published extensively in national and international journals on social, economic, health and demographic facets of population ageing. He is the lead author of the book India’s Elderly: Burden or Challenge? (1999) and has edited the books Social Security for the Elderly: Experiences from South Asia (2008) and Elderly Care in India: Societal and State Responses (Springer, 2017). He developed the first Longitudinal Ageing Survey [LASI] in Kerala in 2004. Repeated every three years, it completed its fifth cycle in 2016 and will enter its sixth in 2019. The second Longitudinal Ageing Survey in Kerala started in 2013, completed its second cycle in 2016 and will enter its third in 2019. Professor Rajan has been involved in several projects on ageing funded by the UN, UN Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA), World Bank (WB), International Labour Organization (ILO), HelpAge International, South Asian Network of Economic Institutes, Indo-Dutch Programme on Alternatives in Development (IDPAD), Shastri Indo-Canadian Institute and International Development Research Centre. He has also undertaken considerable research on international migration and is the editor of two series—India Migration Report and South Asia Migration report—as well as being Editor-in-Chief of the journal Migration and Development.

1) What made you choose ageing as a field of study?

Ans: I did my MA in Economics and a one-year course in demography, then my PhD in demography from IIPH Mumbai. So when I joined as a faculty member in the Centre for Development Studies, Trivandrum I wanted to do research in Kerala (I was 28–29 years old).  I reflected that Kerala alreadyhad less fertility; the fertility study was common in Kerala and most women were sterilized already. 34 to 40% of women were sterilized before reaching the age of 35. Then I thought of taking mortality, which appeared to be interesting to me. but people were living longer. So I thought to look at one of the implications of low fertility and high life expectancy, that is ageing. That motivated me to think about ageing. I remember in India, looking at the review literature, maybe about 10 people were working on this, and a maximum of 15. And that too was not consistently. I started then, and even now I monitor 5000 old people for the last 15 years panel data. It’s the first panel data available in the country. Also I am an expert committee member for LASI in India. I have done a report on COVID patients in the state with the health secretary. Bu there is no money allocation for ageing studies.

2)What are the risk factors that contribute to the vulnerability of the elderly population?

Ans:Elderly become vulnerable once they become older ; you are no longer a person who was 30 at sixty; you have multiple diseases, multiple disabilities, income loss, health loss, care loss, and tooth loss. And added to that, your confidence is also starting to decline. Retirement is only one part; you can live another 23 years after retirement. Are elderly prepared for that?  They are not. Preparation must be there either by the elderly themselves or by their family . If I am getting older, my children should think: my father is now stabilized, how to make him healthy, how can he do things by himself so that he lives the final years in a good way, and how to enable them to have a dignified death?

 Vulnerability continues like that. Society, family, and individual everything contributes to it. Actually, in one sense, you are living longer; not many policies or programmes give you additional qualities for the additional years you have compared to your father or grandfather. The person who lives suffer because of longevity; that’s why we have seen elderly suicides in Kerala. Elderly suicide is shameful for society. and that society cannot claim we are number one in the human development index. It is very high in Japan right now. In India, we boast about the family system and the social security system, people live with their grandchildren.   So we are not prepared to handle the senior citizens of the country.

3)How do you see migration affecting the ageing population?

Ans: Again it is the number of caregivers for the care receivers. The elderly are care receivers, and children are caregivers. Earlier, they had more children—9 children for a couple—and when the last child got married, definitely one of the parents was already dead, but today you see many marriages. Boy’s father and mother alive, girl’s father and mother alive, and also the grandparents. If you ask those parents, they will tell you only their father or mother was alive; no grandparents alive at the time of their marriage. Maybe some old ladies were alive but not their own grandparent as of today. But then the children are not available because of migration for work, studies, etc.. That is the new generation. They have their own lives, their own incomes, their own jobs, and their own wellbeing, their family and their children, they worry about their children’s education. And once they are not available to care, the elderly will be looked after by a paid caregiver. They are cared for by someone they don’t know. There may be violence, there will be abuse. So migration is going to add fuel to elderly issues in the coming days. Migration is going to affect the elderly both in terms of health and finances. Of course, when children are away, there will be no financial insecurity for the older people. They put me in the hospital, and they say I can pay for my father to do all the surgery you want to do. That is only financial security, not human security or psychological security.

4)Is ageism less prevalent than it was in the past?

Ans:It is a part of our society.  This can be overcome by aged people. You have to look for a job where you should not look for money. It’s like rereleasing a movie; it will also run. We have to make policies for rereleasing, reemployment; you have to add new skills, so those are the kinds of things you have to work on. Discrimination will happen, but as an individual, you can overcome that. It’s all about the way you look at discrimination.

5)Do you think older people are safe within the four walls of their house?

Ans:No. I think violence happens within house mostly by known people, and now you have unknown people coming in for caregiving. I think to some extent the elderly are also responsible for that. for example If my grandfather died at 60 ,my father would be 34 , he got all property. But now if I am 45, my father is still alive in his 80s, and not sharing the property. I need to build a house, I have my own needs. It is shameful that father is not giving me anything even now, I think. Because you are living longer, it doesn’t mean that children have to wait until you die. When you die 84 your children will be 55, and they have to take out loans. You are saying this after my death only because otherwise you won’t look after me. Once he died, the children fought. Many of the fights between siblings are between elderly people, and we have to educate them. Violence will happen, and it will be more aggressive in the coming days if they are not ready to change. Children will kill their parents.

Today, when you grow old, what are you getting? As a young boy, you cannot generate resources; you may get some acquired property and mostly inherited property.

Poor people will not fight; they have nothing to eat. And that type of person will increase, so violence will increase. As the elderly are rich, there will be violence to take them.

6)To what extent has the National Programme for Health Care of Elderly (NPHCE) and Maintenance and Welfare of Parents and Senior Citizens Act (MWPSC) improved the condition of elderly?

Ans:Very few. not any drastic changes. I think except for the national social assistance scheme, which was started in 1995, old age pension and giving some money for elderly other programs have not benefited old people. Otherwise, I don’t see any great achievements. It’s all just paper and a waste of time. There have not even been any studies done on elder budgeting. During COVID-19, I was there with the COVID-19 advisory committee to the chief minister of Kerala. I told him anyway we will die, and it should not be out of starvation. That resulted in the community kitchen initiative in Kerala. I think the Kerala government distributed pensions very seriously, which helped him in the subsequent election as the elderly are a major vote bank in Kerala.

7)What do you think about the Digital Divide?

Ans:They are illiterates. Digital fraud and so many things are happening. We have to educate old people on what to do, what not to do, and where to invest. I am myself illiterate and until Covid I was not using online platforms to transfer money .I used to give the phone to one or the other staff, and then because of COVID, the staff could not come, as I learnt.  Now I myself can do transactions if this is the digital literacy that I have. Imagine the poor fellows. So for that, society should also take interest. Also, illiteracy adds fuel to elderly abuse; once an old man seeks help for digital transactions, his relative comes to know about his bank balance which results in attempts to steal it. For them to make digitally literate, some corporates should take initiatives. We can have basic financial literacy as well. It’s a lifelong programme of capacity building.I am a postgraduate representing 20% of all educated people in the country. Now if even I can’t book a meal online, imagine how much it would possible for illiterates.

8)How has the COVID pandemic influenced public perceptions of the elderly?

Ans)Nothing had changed. I think we did a bad thing by saying that old people should not come out. I think that is a form of discrimination we all practised, including the government. That is the biggest mistake we made. They had all been isolated in their own house while their children were moving around. A lady narrated her story, saying that she felt like committing suicide after being locked in the room. The long-term impact on the elderly will be much higher compared to other young people; this was because of government policy. The prime minister was advised by the medical people, not the social scientists. They will only advise isolation; once the country is isolated, that is called lockdown.

9)Could you briefly describe your methodology in gerontology research?

Ans:I use life history. Basically, I use existing data and also do case studies, focused group discussions, and generate new data as part of government projects. I work on ageing and migration, both of which are now global topics. It was not a global topic when I started. Now even the PM talks about migration.

10)Where do you see India after 20–30 years with respect to ageing and related measures?

Ans:India will be in trouble because we have not designed policies to be implemented at the local level in terms of health and finance properly. Globalisation and urbanisation resulted in lower birthrates. Last year, Kerala had only 300,000 births compared to 600,000 births in 30 years of birth: there is a drastic decline in the number of children born to people in this country, and the average number of children given birth by a woman is two, and those two won’t be available because of migration. You live with multiple diseases and disabilities without proper health or life insurance.

11)What are the solutions that you could suggest for these?

Ans:There is no one size fit for all. You have to think of special policies for old people above 90, one for rural elderly, another for widows above 80 etc,it is like a multi-faceted solution

12)Is that possible with limited resources the government possesses?

Ans:By  saying that resources are limited we are fooling ourselves. I have calculated it. If for every Indian old man that is about 140 million, we give Rs 1000 per month, the total would come  to 3% of national income. We are spending 18% for defence. Nepal started old age pension scheme for all above seventy five years old and now they are giving for all above seventy. If a poor country like Nepal can start a universal pension for senior citizens above 75, India can do if there us intent. In one of my articles I had written ‘you are talking about security, I am talking about social security.’